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Slamdunkpro
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Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Location: Northern Virginia
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 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Bill The Grill Guy wrote: |
I have always thought that to become a judge, you should be requered to cook with a team. I know its a rec to become a master judge but by then you already have habits being good or bad.
I have only judged one contest. I learned a lot but,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I knew what the teams had been going through to turn in each and every box. We, as teams, (okay most of us) take a lot of pride in the way the box looks and how the meat tastes. A judge should know what lenghts we go through to get to that point. |
I just don't see how this is relevant. Yes, it's a huge amount of work to go from cryopak to turn in, but the bottom line is the end product. How someone got there isn't important - it's what they produce.
The bigger problem goes back to KCBS standards (or lack thereof) It's a subjective evaluation based on a vague criteria.
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Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"
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Jason - 3 Eyz
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Mutha Chicken BBQ wrote: |
No really, We are going through some huge expansion of our sport right now. Promoting and growing the art of BBQ will require some growing pains and take a couple of years for the sport to really have 100% Judging of a top caliber level. And that is not to knock any Judges. I too feel that all of our energy and efforts are intended to sway a judges scoring to our favor. And in any failure to gain favor feels as though we are slighted. But with that said. We all know we still have to land on the right table. We will get that swing Judge who takes us up or down in scoring.
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I agree with you to some extent there. I think the hard part is for teams that have been competing for at least a year or more to all of a sudden have to "grow" with the sport and accept the range of scoring that we did. We all pay a good amount of money to compete, spend alot of time practicing and preparing, and bust out butt on the weekends of comps. I'm hopeful that the issues that may be out there will get better soon, or else I fear you are going to see some good teams with good people leave the sport (I know of at least 1 that is ready to pack it in) ---and I am talking teams that have won categories and I KNOW cook consistently good food.
I like the idea of mentoring, perhaps even some sort of check or test system. To become certified in alot of things in my industry, you have to get trained, then take some type of test. Not granted BBQ is very subjective and you can't really have a "right" answer. But, perhaps a way to check the judges scores against a norm or something to help them along.
Carl - after re-reading your previous post, I was shocked about the table that you mentioned with 2 newbie CBJs and 3 celebrity judges. How do they let that happen? You said that the scores seemed to be ok based on what the table captain saw, but still leaves a big question there IMHO.
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3 Eyz BBQ
PO Box 2405
Elkton, MD 21922
www.3eyzbbq.com |
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Slamdunkpro
Starter
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
| I like the idea of mentoring, perhaps even some sort of check or test system. To become certified in alot of things in my industry, you have to get trained, then take some type of test. Not granted BBQ is very subjective and you can't really have a "right" answer. But, perhaps a way to check the judges scores against a norm or something to help them along. |
It's hard enough to get enough judges for a contest, or for that matter to get people to become CBJ's. Increasing the hoops required is only going to give 1 of 2 results: Smaller and fewer contests due to the lack of CBJ's or, the situation of "Hey buddy, you like BBQ? We need some judges over here. You doing anything?"
Let's face it, it not a standard that can really be quantified.
_________________
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"
Brinkman modified upright
Webber Kettle(s)
Monster Gas grill
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08 - 09 MABA President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289 |
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Jason - 3 Eyz
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Slamdunkpro wrote: |
| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
| I like the idea of mentoring, perhaps even some sort of check or test system. To become certified in alot of things in my industry, you have to get trained, then take some type of test. Not granted BBQ is very subjective and you can't really have a "right" answer. But, perhaps a way to check the judges scores against a norm or something to help them along. |
It's hard enough to get enough judges for a contest, or for that matter to get people to become CBJ's. Increasing the hoops required is only going to give 1 of 2 results: Smaller and fewer contests due to the lack of CBJ's or, the situation of "Hey buddy, you like BBQ? We need some judges over here. You doing anything?"
Let's face it, it not a standard that can really be quantified. |
I understand it's more of a pipe dream. Well then at a minimum, they should not let what happend at that table that Carl indicated. 5 newbies at a table of 6 judges.
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3 Eyz BBQ
PO Box 2405
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www.3eyzbbq.com |
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carlharper
All-Star
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 139
Location: East Fallowfield PA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Just a clarification on the makeup of my judging table at Salisbury. They asked for 1st time judges to identify themselves after which some switching occurred. It was inevitable that a table or two might have more than one. The reason that the three celebrity judges, with no training, was not immediately apparent, is that it was not their first contest and they didn't raise their hands because they were not first timers.
By the time I figured that out, the judging had started.
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Slamdunkpro
Starter
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
| I understand it's more of a pipe dream. Well then at a minimum, they should not let what happend at that table that Carl indicated. 5 newbies at a table of 6 judges. |
Agreed, this is really the fault of the organizer, not the judges.
_________________
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"
Brinkman modified upright
Webber Kettle(s)
Monster Gas grill
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08 - 09 MABA President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289 |
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Jason - 3 Eyz
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| carlharper wrote: |
Just a clarification on the makeup of my judging table at Salisbury. They asked for 1st time judges to identify themselves after which some switching occurred. It was inevitable that a table or two might have more than one. The reason that the three celebrity judges, with no training, was not immediately apparent, is that it was not their first contest and they didn't raise their hands because they were not first timers.
By the time I figured that out, the judging had started. |
Ahh.. that makes sense then. I agree with Slamdunk.... sounds like the judging coorindator (organizer/rep, or whoever it was), didn't do the greatest job of being clear, etc. Live and learn I guess.
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3 Eyz BBQ
PO Box 2405
Elkton, MD 21922
www.3eyzbbq.com |
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Pig Headed
GM
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 245
Location: Middletown, De
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill The Grill Guy wrote: |
OUR scores were all over the map as well. There was also a screw up with our team numbers. John Bush came up to us on friday evening and asked what number ours was. When I told him, he said that 2 entries had been turned in under that number. NOW HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? He garenteed us that it was straightend out but it does make you think. Has this happend before? |
This is what I was referring to. I think that the turn in boxes were haphazardly given out. In the few other comps I've competed in, they called out the team name and handed you your boxes. At this one, they started driving around on Friday afternoon and gave some teams their boxes at their site. At the cooks meeting, they handed out the rest by you going up to as table and in some cases they asked your team name and hand wrote on the boxes. In other cases they asked your team and looked up on a paper and handed you boxes with handwritten numbers. It all seemed an unusually long process and a little unorganized.
OK, I still love Salisbury and the organizers!!!
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Ron
Pigheaded BBQ team
CBJ#9002 |
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MP Phred
Minor Leaguer
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Blackiston, DE
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="carlharper"]
I would have started at Salisbury ,but as luck would have it my tablemates included two newly trained CBJ's judging their first contest and three "celebrity judges" which I learned were local Salisbury residents pressed into service each year for the contest. They did not attend a CBJ class. Please don't construe this description as being negative.
At Friday's Judging my table had five celebrity judges; on Saturday my table had two first time CBJ's; two celebrity judges, one experienced judge, one CBJ on their second contest (the first was last year at Bel Air.) I, as table captain, checked the score cards but no wide discrepancies stood out; but I can see where the scores could vary. Consistently at the various contest I have judged newly trained or untrained judges gave lower marks to the entries than the experienced judges, one untrained judge at a contest was even given entries two's and three's where everybody else was giving eight's and nine's. After the KCBS rep talked to that person; the scoring changed a little bit but not much (three's and four's); some people just do not BBQ. This is not to say all untrained judges are bad; Friday's untrained judges scores the VA BBQ entry and they walked away with the Perdue prize.
JMO
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Kiyoshi
Member NBBQA + KCBS + MABBQA
Proud owner(?) of a Fila Brasileiro
Shameful owner of a Traeger
KCBS CBJ
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JSABill
Starter
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Location: Woodsboro, MD
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies |
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| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
..... But those that know us, know that our chicken is usually pretty decent. This turn-in was on par with the others than won 1st place and we would up 74th or something like that.
Aside from the judging, had a great time, good hanging with everyone, and can't wait until the next one.
Judges - thank you for doing what you guys do regardless of my gripe. WIthout judging, there would be no contests. |
Jason, I do know your chicken scores, so when I saw we beat you, I felt a little better.  I even comented to my team mate on the way home that we beat 3-Eyz in chicken! - Sometimes you have to find the small victories to cheer yourself on and keep going 
Our scores were all over the place. If I'm going to get a 5 ( and we had 9's and 5's on the same card and didn't mix pieces of meat ) I would like to know why!! I don't know how I can get better if I think I'm turning in good product and get a large range of scores. I would like to get comment cards, if possible, telling me too hot, too salty, not enough smoke flavor, dry, overcooked, whatever.
Still enjoyed Salisbury. Will be there next year and hope for better results.
Bill |
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Mutha Chicken BBQ
Overpaid Broadcaster
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 356
Location: Wilmington,DE
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies |
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| JSABill wrote: |
Jason, I do know your chicken scores, so when I saw we beat you, I felt a little better. I even comented to my team mate on the way home that we beat 3-Eyz in chicken! - Sometimes you have to find the small victories to cheer yourself on and keep going
Our scores were all over the place. If I'm going to get a 5 ( and we had 9's and 5's on the same card and didn't mix pieces of meat ) I would like to know why!! I don't know how I can get better if I think I'm turning in good product and get a large range of scores. I would like to get comment cards, if possible, telling me too hot, too salty, not enough smoke flavor, dry, overcooked, whatever.
Still enjoyed Salisbury. Will be there next year and hope for better results.
Bill |
That is why I wish they would have instituted the judges cards and make them write anything lower than a 5 on it. And the reason why.
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The only thing consistant in BBQ is, It's always the judges fault!
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Tiki Wolf
Coach
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 161
Location: Abingdon, MD
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies |
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| Mutha Chicken BBQ wrote: |
| That is why I wish they would have instituted the judges cards and make them write anything lower than a 5 on it. And the reason why. |
When I did the Deer Hunter contest that Brett Brown put together last year, he had the chief cooks judge. He had arranged the tables so that you wouldn't be judging your own entry. Instead of scorecards, he had sheets made up and comments were required for the main scoring items such as Presentation, Taste, Texture/Tenderness, but there were also areas to write what you liked about the presentation or taste, what you didn't like, and suggestions on what you, as a judge, would like to see differently. I realize that it would take more time to judge, but I wish KCBS would institute something like this on a regular basis. This is invaluable feedback.
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Keith
Smokey Bottom Boys
Porkers in Paradise
Bel Air, MD |
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Big George'S BBQ
Overpaid Broadcaster
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 550
Location: Harleysville, PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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I like that idea. Comments on how to improve or what was wrong would definately help- especially if you are fairly new to competition
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Back Porch BBQ |
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Big Ugly BBQ
Overpaid Broadcaster
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Perryville, MD
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Maybe that's something we could implement at MABA sanctioned events? Sounds like a great idea, since these events tend to be smaller, and it would give some great feedback.
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Chris
CBJ #24810
Caldera TallBoy
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"The higher up the flag pole you are, the more your butt shows." Roger Clements, 2008
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Jason - 3 Eyz
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Inconsistencies |
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| JSABill wrote: |
| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
..... But those that know us, know that our chicken is usually pretty decent. This turn-in was on par with the others than won 1st place and we would up 74th or something like that.
Aside from the judging, had a great time, good hanging with everyone, and can't wait until the next one.
Judges - thank you for doing what you guys do regardless of my gripe. WIthout judging, there would be no contests. |
Jason, I do know your chicken scores, so when I saw we beat you, I felt a little better. I even comented to my team mate on the way home that we beat 3-Eyz in chicken! - Sometimes you have to find the small victories to cheer yourself on and keep going
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Well, it certainly is nice to know that there are other teams out there "gunning" for your scores. Unfortunately, ALOT of teams beat our chicken score, all but about 8 I think..
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3 Eyz BBQ
PO Box 2405
Elkton, MD 21922
www.3eyzbbq.com |
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