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Jason - 3 Eyz
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Sounds alot like the stuff that Dan and I deal with in the environmental consulting world. Regulations that state agencies have set up, yet they have unpublished "guidelines" that they work off of. Which they conveniently decide to change when it suits them, without telling anyone. I can't tell you how many times I have set up a plan for a site, talking it through with the client, then sent it to the agency for approval... only to get a response that they changed their policy without notice. All it would take if an email, or quick one-page memo, etc.
So, I certainly understand how it can get confusing for judges. Things like this can certainly lead to the inconsistencies that you mentioned.
Dave - Did you guys see a wide variety of scores or inconsistencies when you were cooking with Mike at Salisbury?
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Pig Headed
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| White Dog BBQ wrote: |
Going back to the original question posed by Behr -- I think I can see the reasoning here. I had always thought that the "averaging" method had to be used if you submit two different styles in the same box. If you submit separated piles of inside meat and bark, under an averaging scenario your tenderness scores SHOULD drop -- bark ain't tender. Same thing with burnt ends vs. slices. Considering that these things tend to be a (yummy) byproduct of the meat, it doesn't make much sense to treat them as equal to the inside meat. |
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Pig Headed
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Location: Middletown, De
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| White Dog BBQ wrote: |
Going back to the original question posed by Behr -- I think I can see the reasoning here. I had always thought that the "averaging" method had to be used if you submit two different styles in the same box. If you submit separated piles of inside meat and bark, under an averaging scenario your tenderness scores SHOULD drop -- bark ain't tender. Same thing with burnt ends vs. slices. Considering that these things tend to be a (yummy) byproduct of the meat, it doesn't make much sense to treat them as equal to the inside meat. |
This is an interesting thread. In my vast experience of judging two whole contests  , I was judging the meat by the "tenderness/texture" of what I thought the cook intended, thus all meat such as bark or burnt ends didn't need to be "tender". I'm sure cooks intend for the bark to have a lkittle texture, I know that that's what I strive for.
I too think that maybe KCBS needs to make sure that CBJ's are made aware of any changes to the "Guidelines" as they occur.
This is why I read these forums. I like to read the different opinions and thoughts of everyone. I learn something new on threads like this.
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carlharper
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 82
Location: East Fallowfield PA
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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We pause now.......................as an eerie silence descends upon the land of competition cooks.
I thought you all would jump all over this topic. As a judge I'd be very interested to hear what you, as cooks, expect of the judges. Don't be shy.
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Dan - 3eyzbbq
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Location: Owings Mills, MD
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| carlharper wrote: |
We pause now.......................as an eerie silence descends upon the land of competition cooks.
I thought you all would jump all over this topic. As a judge I'd be very interested to hear what you, as cooks, expect of the judges. Don't be shy. |
I expect all 9's for my entries. Everyone else deserves a 2. Very simple 
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ChristyQ*
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Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 129
Location: Springfield,Virginia
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan - 3eyzbbq wrote: |
| carlharper wrote: |
We pause now.......................as an eerie silence descends upon the land of competition cooks.
I thought you all would jump all over this topic. As a judge I'd be very interested to hear what you, as cooks, expect of the judges. Don't be shy. |
I expect all 9's for my entries. Everyone else deserves a 2. Very simple |
Ahh Dan Land ...it must be such a Happy Place  So sorry I could'nt resist that sweetie
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Jason - 3 Eyz
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO.. If you put it in the box, it gets judged... plain and simple... Judges also need to use some common sense (which most do) when judging. Obviously you can't judge tenderness on bark... HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that you jack up the score if the bark is really good, but don't lower it if the bark is terrible. I think you try a good representative of the entire box then score. I kind of like the law of averages on that one.. If you feel the pork is a 8, but the bark is a 6.. give it a 7..... If you feel that they are one point apart, give them the higher.. (if you think the pork is a 7 and bark an 8, then the average would be 7.5 ----> which should go to an  .
Just my 2 cents. I don't necessarily like the idea of not getting penalized for a wrong answer. I think part of the challenge as a cook is to figure out what pieces to put in there. If you give everyone carte blanche to throw burnt ends/bark in there without any worry about loweing the score, you defeat that skill.
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Behr
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Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Burnt Ends & Bark |
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| If you give everyone carte blanche to throw burnt ends/bark in there without any worry about lowering the score, you defeat that skill. |
I was asking myself the same thing. But honestly, how probable is it that someone's pulled pork is going to have that much of a shot of scoring well if the bark is mediocre (or just plain bad)? Just food for thought.
Considering the feedback (or lack thereof), I'm still going to ask questions from anyone who hasn't already gotten tired my haranguing. If I learn anything, I'll certainly keep you all posted. In the meantime, I'm going to pick up some KFC, grab my wife and kid, and go to the drive-in.
Dave |
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VA BBQ PIRATES
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Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Springfield, VA
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think that if it's in the box it should be judged. I know if I put something in the box it's my attempt to help my score not as a treat to be handed out. (with the exception of toothpicks and/or pooled sauce which if present is a gift to the table captain and should be treated as such - nothing more, nothing less )
What really bothers me about this whole thing is that everyone should be on the same page and obviously we aren't.
What if I'm at a comp set up next to 3Eyz (Just for example). We both turn in great pork and include bark. We get seperat tables, mine goes to one judging as we expect, 3Eyz gets a table who's judges are all grads of the class Dave took. Both teams have great pork but the bark is aufull. My judges score it down and 3Eyze judge ignore it. They win and I never know it was my bark.
Can't KCBS get us all on the same page - which ever it is - so long as we all know?
Tom
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Jason - 3 Eyz
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Tom.. I agree.. and I like your scenario, especially if you mean 1st place
Dave - ask al the questions that you want!! That's what makes a forum great. I do agree that usually if the bark is good the pork is also.. Not all the time, but usually. Although I could see a scenario where the bark is perfect, but the pork is undercooked... OR the opposite where the pork is maybe a bit overcooked and the bark is like cardboard...
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Slamdunkpro
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Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Jason - 3 Eyz wrote: |
| IMHO.. If you put it in the box, it gets judged... plain and simple... Judges also need to use some common sense (which most do) when judging. Obviously you can't judge tenderness on bark... HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that you jack up the score if the bark is really good, but don't lower it if the bark is terrible. |
This is the crux of the problem, why would you have a "guideline" that has no down side, only an up side? Who wrote this? Congress? <sarcasm>Are we going to end up where competitions are like some kids soccer leagues where everyone gets 9's across the board, and everyone gets a blue ribbon because "everyone worked so hard and put in lots of effort"?</sarcasm>
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White Dog BBQ
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| At some point I think KCBS is going to need to review their judging criteria and get these unwritten guidelines either written down or dropped. I'd hope if they ever do that, they'd also try to come up with at least some objective criteria to consider when rating appearance, taste and tenderness. When I took my certification class it was so hear that there used to be some subjective points to consider, but now it all is based on subjective evaluation. What a pity. |
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Big George'S BBQ
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 156
Location: Harleysville, PA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I think that rules/guidelines need to be uniform. I look at the Bull Sheet. All KCBS has to do is to change the postings of any changes on the nternet under their rules/guidelines. They can even put a heading NEW CHANGES. That way everyone has access to them. I would also really like to see a comment along with point scores at the contests. I do not know if that is possible but that would help me know what I did wrong or if by the grace of the BBQ Gods- did right.
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