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Behr · Starter Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 73 Location: Baltimore

Hi all

I was certified as a judge out in Dover last month, and Jerry Mulane gave some direction regarding boxes that contain burnt ends or bark that still has me a bit confused. I mentioned the point over on the Forum and managed to raise a lot of stink.

I wrote Jerry, and he responded:

As I told and Ed (Roith) reiterated when a tray is shown to us for the presentation score we use all of the meat in the tray to reach our score. However, when we take samples for taste and tenderness we always urge the students to take some of each kind of meat that is in the box. Such as Burnt ends with Brisket and Bark with pork. Now we ask you to sample the brisket or pork as presented to obtain a score. We then ask you to try the burnt ends or bark separately. IF these additions add value to the meat I instruct to add points to the score, if the additions (burnt ends and bark) do not add value, I instruct the students not to remove points from the score. In my classes I always refer to Burnt ends or bark as gifts from the BBQ Gods, Ed said he uses the word treats. So YES you were right in your understanding of the class.

In other words, a competitor's scores for taste and tenderness are not necessarily dependent on bark or ends. This seems somewhat contradictory to me, as, technically speaking, someone could legally turn in a box with nothing but bark or ends. And more than a few competitors don't seem thrilled with the idea of turning in something they've put their effort into and possibly not being scored for it.

I'm not really asking if you like the ruling or not - if it's the way you're supposed to judge, then it's the way you're supposed to judge. I would, however, appreciate any insight anyone has as to any logic underlying this guideline.

Thanks,

Dave

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Mutha Chicken BBQ · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject:

Well where's Carl when you need him?..........

My take would be this. I have spent numerous hours cooking my brisket and toiled all night to achieve what I believe to be the best. I slice it up and and need a little filler to make my box look outstanding. I am so proud of the way I cooked it I am not afraid to turn in any part of it. (ANd personally Burt ends are great tasting)

On the flip side. I over cook my brisket and everything I tried to do has just went up in a flash. Hmmm............What to do.....I know I will cut the wholething up into "Burnt ends" and turn it in.

I think that is the essences of what Jerry is trying to relate to the judges. There are ways of trying to decieve judges. But some are well intentioned cooks who are just adding to the box.

If my brisket is overcooked, I'll slice it thicker. If my brisket is undercooked I may slice it thinner. One of the reasons the bench mark was set a about a "pencils width" on slices, I think.

Well now I am confused and my head hurts from thinking.Hope some one else clears this up better than I did. Laughing

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carlharper · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

So you're the guy who started that big stink on this subject. I find Jerry's instruction to go against what I was taught when I took the CBJ class with another instructor.

My opinion is that we are to judge each entry "as presented". If the cook puts more than one style of presentation of the same meat in the box, I will assume that they wanted each judge to try it and make it part of their overall evaluation. To me, that just makes sense. I'm sure there are other opinions.
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Dan - 3eyzbbq · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject:

I'm not a trained judge. Just gettin that out there......

I read this as "answer every question as wrong answers wont hurt your score'.

In other words. I present pulled pork mixed with inside meat and bark and its scored a 7. You then taste the bark by itself, and you decide to up the score to an 8 or 9.

However. I present the same pulled pork mixed with inside meat and bark and its scored a 7. You then taste the bark by itself and its aweful, you then WOULD NOT lower the 7.

Do I agree with it? Not sure, but thats how I read the above explanation.
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Behr · Starter Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 73 Location: Baltimore

Close, Dan

And again, whether we agree with or not is not the issue at hand. If the thread goes that direction, I have to keep out of it altogether. The reason I bring it up at all is that this particular guideline is not consistent with the one given for boxes with two other types of samples - read on.

The guideline I mentioned only applies where you have a box where the bark or ends are completely separated from the other samples Judges are not supposed to dissect a pile of pulled pork if the ends are mixed in.

We discussed all kinds of scenarios - and I have to commend Jerry for his patience with my going way beyond beating this horse to death - but just to keep more or less in the same topic area:

Case 1:
A box has six distinct samples (or one big pile).
Judge Action:
Give score for appearance, take a sample, and give scores for taste and texture - just like you'd expect them to. Supposedly this covers 95% of the boxes you ever see.

Case 2:
A box has six slices and a pile of chopped.
Judge Action:
Give score for appearance, take a sample of both the pulled and the sliced, and give a score for taste and texture based on the average of the two.

This guideline applies only to shoulder and brisket. Interestingly, if you turned in a box with six wings and six thighs, the judges are instructed to take just one and the rest is given to the volunteers. I'm not sure about a box with six wings and a pile of chopped. However, if there's that much crammed in the box, I doubt anyone could expect much of a score for appearance.

Case 3 would be the case under fire:
A box with six samples (or one big pile) and completely separated bark or ends.
Judge Action:
Give score for appearance, take a sample, come up with a score for taste and texture, try the bark or ends, and only increase the score if warranted.

That kind of tells me that if I really wanted the best chance at a score, I'd always submit the bark in a separate pile. That way I could never be penalized for it. But whether you could trust the judge to follow this guideline is another issue.

I suspect some of it comes from the fact that there will always be a select few judges who will not eat burnt ends or bark. Just like there will be some who will not eat chicken skin. Okay, so maybe this person shouldn't be judging. But someone had to come up with a guideline for reps when they run across these folks and didn't realize there would be an issue until the middle of judging.

I have my opinions on how I might resolve the matter, but since I'm not interested in writing KCBS to urge them to reconsider their position, my opinion and 50 cents still won't get you a cup of coffee.

I hope that clarifies things a bit.

Dave

VA BBQ PIRATES · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject:

So you're the one! Very Happy

What Dan said - I'm not a CBJ.

From what I've read Everything in the box is part of the turn in and should be judged. If I add burnt ends and they suck I expect to lose points. (well not a lot of points - I hope) From your quote from the class I see where your comming from and I feel your pain. It is always confusing when there are more than one message coming from the same organization.
Tom
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Slamdunkpro · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject:

I've got to agree with Carl, if it's in the box - it's fair game and the entry should be evaluated as a whole plus or minus. Judges aren't mind readers and should not be expected to be.
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carlharper · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject:

www.tnamazinblazin.com/Docs/2008_KCBS_Judges_Instructions.pdf

Use the above link to the exact text of the Judges CD that is mandatory listening before every contest. You will not find even one sentence that addresses this scenario, one way or the other.

We, as judges need to use common sense regarding some of the things we hear are being taught by the various CBJ class instructors. If I recall correctly, the consensus of those weighing in on this subject on another forum was that the idea of burnt ends or bark being added to the box as a bonus for the judges and not something to be evaluated as part of the scoring decision is completely absurd!

I have to agree. As I stated before, if the cook chooses to include it.......the judges should evaluate everything in the box "as presented".
It doesn't get much simpler than that.

OK, let's hear from the cooks!
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Behr · Starter Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 73 Location: Baltimore

And if you recall, Carl, I strongly encouraged people at that time to verify this for themselves with KCBS. Apparently you have chosen to let other folks do your homework for you. So with all due respect, Carl, the least you can do is not elicit yet another thread on another forum filled with so many more useless opinions.

Frankly I'm at a loss as to why you're upset a guideline that guarantees that you will never be penalized for what a judge decides is bad bark or ends.

When I verified this with my instructor, he verified it with Ed Roith, the head of the KCBS judging committee. I've also verified with two KCBS reps. Like it or not. THIS IS THE GUIDELINE. It's not an interpretation. It's not one judging instructor's opinion or slant. This is what judges and competitors must deal with. Again, you don't have to like it. But you do have to understand that per the direction of KCBS, you will be judged on this basis, no matter how much you wish to rail of the guideline's injustices. This thread is not the place for it.

Now, since this guideline is what we must deal with, perhaps if you stop spouting opinions and listen real carefully, you might hear from someone who knows what he's talking about, and gain some light on why it is in place.

Dave

White Dog BBQ · Benchwarmer Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 32

Much of this discussion seems to be premised on a discussion on another forum -- for the benefit of those of us who didn't see that thread, could someone post a link?

Going back to the original question posed by Behr -- I think I can see the reasoning here. I had always thought that the "averaging" method had to be used if you submit two different styles in the same box. If you submit separated piles of inside meat and bark, under an averaging scenario your tenderness scores SHOULD drop -- bark ain't tender. Same thing with burnt ends vs. slices. Considering that these things tend to be a (yummy) byproduct of the meat, it doesn't make much sense to treat them as equal to the inside meat.

I don't understand the chicken scenario you mentioned, however. If there are enough of both kinds of pieces, I would think the judges should try one of each.

Behr · Starter Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 73 Location: Baltimore

I don't entirely understand the chicken issue either, which is why I brought it up.

And your explanation, White Dog, actually makes some sense. I could see people turning in bark or ends so overdone that they were judged inedible and got a 2. However we're still making guesses. I'm really hoping someone here can find some better clarification from KCBS.

I can't find those links on the BBQ Forum. The discussion was largely based on my stating the guideline, and people saying I was wrong, or it was unfair or illogical. It ended with me back-checking with the folks I mentioned, which later has turned into some pretty positive dialogs. None of it really provided any reasons for why the guideline is in place.

I agree - at first glance, the guideline makes no sense. You could technically turn in a box with nothing but ends or bark and receive scores based solely on that. And yet you're not scored in the same manner if they're the second sample type.

But I'm not nearly as concerned with that as I am about the fact that I have been instructed on and exhaustively verified a guideline that (a) very few others seem to have heard about, and (b) anyone has yet to provide a clear explanation for. Does that bother anyone else?

I'm not about to say this is a guideline that should necessarily stay in place. Until it changes, it would be nice to know why it's there - that's all I'm really asking for. Given the nature of KCBS - that it's largely run by folks who are doing this in their spare time and are not necessarily experts on how large organizations may be effectively structured - it probably shouldn't be too surprising that we occasionally run across rules and guidelines that don't make sense. This is one of those occasions.

Is this worth writing to them about and lobbying for a change? Do I really want to challenge a guideline that protects people from being unfairly penalized? As new as I am, I can't even make an assessment as to what fraction of turn-ins even have ends or bark - as far as I know we're discussing an issue that I may well never run across as judge.

So no, I don't intend to challenge the guideline. I just want to know why it's there and why no one has been able to provide that answer.

Dave

Slamdunkpro · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Burnt Ends & Bark

Behr · Starter Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 73 Location: Baltimore

I brought up that point as well, Slamdunkpro. The answer I got was that new rulings are published in the Bullsheet, and that judges can always retake the judging class for free (except now you have to pitch something in for the food costs) and become oriented on all the changes since the last time they took the class. That's probably not a completely horrible suggestion, but it does little for those who don't have the opportunity to retake the classes.

I also never found it in the published judges guidelines, which include those same directions.

Honestly, I'm not making this stuff up, folks. I also know I'm not winning any popularity contests.

And Carl - my response to you was not in the least considerate, so I offer my apologies. Next event we're at together, let me buy you a frosty beverage - I'm sure there's a lot more constructive things we can talk about.

Dave

carlharper · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:34 am Post subject:

behr, I just have one question. Where can I find the KCBS "guideline" that you reference multiple times? I posted a link to the published guidelines for judging procedures which do not adress this issue.
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carlharper · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:45 am Post subject:

Behr,

Sorry, I didn't fully read your previous acknowledgement that this "guideline" is unpublished. I thoroughly read each Bullsheet for this kind of stuff and I don't recall seeing anything on this matter.

Now, maybe the question is.......Is a guideline really a guideline if it isn't documented?

By the way, thanks for the offer.............I LOVE frosty beverages!
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